tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post8676044560001180468..comments2023-04-04T11:00:28.668-05:00Comments on Gottesblog: On Semper VirgoFr BFEhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-90515688348680629932009-11-12T10:49:17.661-06:002009-11-12T10:49:17.661-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234917506356126494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-29146349119524712792009-11-12T08:46:33.925-06:002009-11-12T08:46:33.925-06:00Fr. BFE,
I think I would say that a sacrament is ...Fr. BFE,<br /><br />I think I would say that a sacrament is a "res" - but it is a res that is bound to an office, to a duty, to a function. Outside that "actio" it is not bound to be or remain that "res". As such, I cannot say conclusively that outside the actio of the sacrament that it is and remains the Lord's Body and Blood (for I have no promise or Word to Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-77831000355720526552009-11-10T20:11:14.077-06:002009-11-10T20:11:14.077-06:00I think I differ here. Intimacy in marriage is no...I think I differ here. Intimacy in marriage is not ordinary, it is a beautiful expression of love. It is the way the a man shows his love to his wife and becomes one with her. This is what marriage is all about. Why should Mary become less by not doing that which God has declared holy?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234917506356126494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-89492408015578541162009-11-10T20:06:00.458-06:002009-11-10T20:06:00.458-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234917506356126494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-70344086108871237652009-11-10T18:04:55.785-06:002009-11-10T18:04:55.785-06:00Peter: on the visit of the holy family to Jerusale...Peter: on the visit of the holy family to Jerusalem, we are told that they supposed Jesus to be in the company, which suggests that there was a large group of relatives together. A twelve-year-old boy, particularly the most responsible in history, would not be much of a concern here, even for doting parents.<br /><br />And on the question of 'common' use, I'll just reiterate, at the Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-27659733378218286812009-11-10T11:30:08.674-06:002009-11-10T11:30:08.674-06:00I also don't think that it's helpful to th...I also don't think that it's helpful to think of marital relations as "common use," as if it were merely a bodily function. Why not recognize such intimacy as sacred, set apart, and an expression of consummating love through which God continues his act of creation?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234917506356126494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-72151235064837234292009-11-10T11:15:47.631-06:002009-11-10T11:15:47.631-06:00I'm with Eric on this one, and especially like...I'm with Eric on this one, and especially like his Zionist analogy. (And, I don't consider celibacy within marriage as a virtue, or that this would defile Mary. The desire for more children would I think be enhanced knowing that the world's redeemer had come). But, I realize I'm covering old ground. On a side note, I think this may be the background of the story of boy Jesus at Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234917506356126494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-17968354590992785522009-11-09T08:46:36.308-06:002009-11-09T08:46:36.308-06:00I note that you curiously refer to the endurance o...I note that you curiously refer to the <i>endurance</i> of the sacrament outside the sacramental action, which may indicate that you have adopted the Melanchthonian view of the sacrament as <i>actio</i>, as opposed to the view of Luther, who saw the sacrament as <i>res</i>.<br /><br />The Lutheran Confessions' rejection of a sacrament outside the use is not intended to be an endorsement of Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-47146570338669056652009-11-08T13:59:39.081-06:002009-11-08T13:59:39.081-06:00The Incarnation and the Virgin Birth do go togethe...The Incarnation and the Virgin Birth do go together as you point out. While this connection does not necessitate the semper virgo nor does such a connection preclude it.<br /><br />Implications vis-a-vis the sacrament and ordination did not come to mind, but now that you mention it . . .Timothy Mayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11869105787715732917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-9232139065962276492009-11-08T12:31:14.302-06:002009-11-08T12:31:14.302-06:00The Incarnation is dependent upon the Virgin birth...The Incarnation is dependent upon the Virgin birth - it is not dependent upon an idea of perpetual virginity. If Christ truly became man, then He truly had a mother who was human - and human mothers can have more than one child. Jesus does not have to be the only fruit of Mary's Womb to be truly Man.<br /><br />That's where the I don't see things making sense. I don't see how Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-60912942027167906022009-11-07T10:07:12.904-06:002009-11-07T10:07:12.904-06:00Thank you for your frankness and cordiality in thi...Thank you for your frankness and cordiality in this discussion. I need to understand more what is meant by "logic" since much of Scripture would need to be tossed if we approached it logically. Still, I appreciate your position.<br /><br /> This is the first level-headed online discussion on this topic that I can remember in recent years.Timothy Mayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11869105787715732917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-79650181330328469962009-11-07T09:07:24.856-06:002009-11-07T09:07:24.856-06:00While I am not quite convinced by it's correct...While I am not quite convinced by it's correctness, or of the logic of it, it does explain it your position better. Thank you.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-34648164779454178562009-11-07T07:25:17.861-06:002009-11-07T07:25:17.861-06:00The previous post is directed to the relationship ...The previous post is directed to the relationship between the "rightful honoring" of Mary and the "perpetual virginity" or semper virgo. <br /><br />You say that the one should not depend on the other. I say that this is correct since there is much more to Mary being the Mother of God than only the perpetual virginity. However, you tend to move in the direction of Timothy Mayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11869105787715732917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-50117082250949897082009-11-06T18:28:34.752-06:002009-11-06T18:28:34.752-06:00Fr. May,
I am not quite certain if I follow the w...Fr. May,<br /><br />I am not quite certain if I follow the way your logic flows. Are you saying that if Mary were to have had relations with Joseph after Christ's birth that this would thwart or nullify the Incarnation? Or that if the Incarnation is the Incarnation then Mary would not be able to consummate with Joseph? Or is this to say that if we do not always acknowledge her at the Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-81163887968172586702009-11-06T16:18:38.372-06:002009-11-06T16:18:38.372-06:00In a way it does. Once again, her perpetual virgi...In a way it does. Once again, her perpetual virginity is tied to the Incarnation, to her being the Mother of God. It is correct that the rightful honor of Mary does not depend only on this teaching of the semper virgo since Mary has also many other reasons to be honored. However, the honor accorded her because of the semper virgo is honor accorded her because of Christ. Therefore, all honor Timothy Mayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11869105787715732917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-56712844085551434532009-11-06T14:16:28.623-06:002009-11-06T14:16:28.623-06:00And see, ironically as it may be, it ends up being...And see, ironically as it may be, it ends up being for strangely parallel reasons why I tend to. . . dislike much of the Semper Virgo discussion.<br /><br />If I may so opine here, I shall dive in.<br /><br />The wonder, the miracle of the ages, is beheld in the Virgin conceiving and bearing a Son. That God Himself takes flesh from the Virgin Mary and makes it His own. In this we see the Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-85664680005221098222009-11-06T10:35:07.824-06:002009-11-06T10:35:07.824-06:00This is always a worthwhile topic. Although it ma...This is always a worthwhile topic. Although it may cause some to bristle at first, after thoughtful theological reflection on the significance, of which your post is an example, it is a teaching one cannot give up. One may even say that Mary is "full of grace." Whatever the emphasis, the significance of this teaching is that it is always in relation to Christ and in this case, His Timothy Mayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11869105787715732917noreply@blogger.com