tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post450645815070790224..comments2023-04-04T11:00:28.668-05:00Comments on Gottesblog: Before the Incarnate OneFr BFEhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comBlogger109125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-43587238899796598702009-02-10T11:19:00.000-06:002009-02-10T11:19:00.000-06:00Fr. Beane,Exactly! This is why pointing to the ac...Fr. Beane,<BR/><BR/>Exactly! This is why pointing to the actual abuses of the Sacrament in our midst today is not "raising a red herring" in this debate. Judging Fr. Eckardt's practice on its own should reveal to all investigators that there is no abuse of the Sacrament going on; nothing at all being done in violation of Holy Scripture or our Lutheran Confessions. Judging his practice against Rev. Thomas C. Messer, SSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13740553600700598394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-56744150480891030362009-02-10T11:06:00.000-06:002009-02-10T11:06:00.000-06:00Dear Anonymous:I know the question is for Fritz, a...Dear Anonymous:<BR/><BR/>I know the question is for Fritz, and I'm not going to answer it, but as a "point of order," I do want to point out a flaw in your question. Communing shut-ins and people in the hospital isn't just a matter of the pastor's "convenience" - as though our leisurely schedules permit us to stretch our hands over our heads, yawn, and decide to just go home and have a beer. Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-66629784353644925692009-02-10T10:49:00.000-06:002009-02-10T10:49:00.000-06:00Perhaps this question should be asked:Which came f...Perhaps this question should be asked:<BR/><BR/>Which came first:<BR/>- Your desire to take Holy Communion to the shut-ins from the same elements as were used in the Sunday mass, and so you retain it and thus adore it during its retention; or<BR/>- Your desire to adore the elements from the Sunday mass, and so you retain it under the good intention of taking it to the shut-in?<BR/><BR/>Trusting Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-59796574509249037902009-02-10T09:39:00.000-06:002009-02-10T09:39:00.000-06:00To play the "Luther's drunken peasant" card, I thi...To play the "Luther's drunken peasant" card, I think something can be said for stating clearly what abuses we're trying to navigate between.<BR/><BR/>On one end of the spectrum, we have the abuses that Luther and the reformers faced, of elements being consecrated with no intent to eat them - which is "outside the use" of communion. This turned the consecrated elements into magic charms, to the Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-84922908624088215012009-02-10T08:55:00.000-06:002009-02-10T08:55:00.000-06:00The more applicable leftover text is probably Exod...The more applicable leftover text is probably Exodus 12, not Exodus 16.Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-89428878660248764892009-02-10T08:53:00.000-06:002009-02-10T08:53:00.000-06:00I don't feel like I have a dog in this fight, but ...I don't feel like I have a dog in this fight, but I don't think the manna in the desert analogy works. Here, the NT trumps the OT. Instead, I would point to the feeding of the 5000 and 4000, where the bread most definitely is preserved as "left-overs" presumably to be distributed at another time.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234917506356126494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-20405038950638920812009-02-10T00:25:00.000-06:002009-02-10T00:25:00.000-06:00Let me clarify "validity." I only mean our use or...Let me clarify "validity." I only mean our use or abuse of the Sacrament doesn't change the fact that Christ is present. Whether He is abused by men upon a cross or glorified by men on Easter morning, He remains One who is worthy of all glory and worship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-67256321354961860682009-02-10T00:16:00.000-06:002009-02-10T00:16:00.000-06:00Ok, so let's connect the dots shall we? A "Tempor...Ok, so let's connect the dots shall we? A "Temporary Presence" would seem to imply a "Temporary Grace." For how can there be any grace apart from the Flesh and Blood Man Jesus Christ? And how could anyone separate Jesus from His Body and Blood? <BR/><BR/>If one believes that his Lord's Body and Blood is present in the Sacrament than one has to believe that the entire Lord is present in the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-6561221536915410202009-02-09T21:11:00.000-06:002009-02-09T21:11:00.000-06:00Considering our bold Augsburg assertion that:"our ...Considering our bold Augsburg assertion that:<BR/><BR/>"our churches dissent in no article of faith from the Church Catholic, but only omit some abuses which are new, and which have been erroneously accepted by the corruption of the times, contrary to the intent of the Canons,"<BR/><BR/>it follows that those who believe in the article of faith of the Temporary Presence (that vanishes after the Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-45881285721041149732009-02-09T20:35:00.000-06:002009-02-09T20:35:00.000-06:00Fr Skillman,Perhaps you could be more specific. I...Fr Skillman,<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you could be more specific. I have already indicated above how the usus clause is to be understood: certainly not as if it was introducing a new doctrine by which the Real Withdrawal happened at stage three. Benediction said, and *puff* Christ is gone!<BR/><BR/>The confessions were intent on preserving the Sacrament from abuse, especially in an age when abuse was Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-61021417126127679532009-02-09T17:21:00.000-06:002009-02-09T17:21:00.000-06:00What's an eternal light for?(Pssst. 99)What's an eternal light for?<BR/><BR/>(Pssst. 99)Cecil The Sea Sick Sea Serpenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13537345550560367967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-36738082455119823652009-02-09T16:01:00.000-06:002009-02-09T16:01:00.000-06:00Fr. Eckardt,I sensed no disrespect. I am sincerely...Fr. Eckardt,<BR/><BR/>I sensed no disrespect. <BR/><BR/>I am sincerely confused about all this. I want to do right. I'm just not sure what "right" is in this case. These things matter to me quite a bit, as I know they do to you. This discussion has been far from academic for me. <BR/><BR/>When I see the tabernacle on your post, I think to myself, here is someone who believes that the body and Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-41974490158642860812009-02-09T08:30:00.000-06:002009-02-09T08:30:00.000-06:00Fr. Skillman, I meant no disrespect for you by the...Fr. Skillman, I meant no disrespect for you by the previous post; my diatribe might have seemed so, since I was replying to your post. But it was just that, a diatribe.Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-83610039034944547822009-02-09T08:27:00.000-06:002009-02-09T08:27:00.000-06:00Fr. Beane, you're killing me . . .Fr. Messer, I fe...Fr. Beane, you're killing me . . .<BR/><BR/>Fr. Messer, I fear you're wasting your time, as it appears you also suspect.<BR/><BR/>Fr. Skillman, you ask: <BR/><BR/>"I was wondering if we could all agree to this statement: While other practices might be acceptable, it is the best practice to consume all the elements at the mass."<BR/><BR/>Obviously I would not agree. You might think that in takingFr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-37403977784480409292009-02-09T06:07:00.000-06:002009-02-09T06:07:00.000-06:00I know that I am probably speaking where I shouldn...I know that I am probably speaking where I shouldn't (ie. an Anglican speaking on a Lutheran blog) but I can't help adding to this discussion with my experience in a Lutheran congregation as their pastor.<BR/><BR/>The congregation that I served made their own bread and wine. This was very much a labour of love for them. But two things became very obvious in a short time while there. 1) They were Bryce P Wandreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06790969884859851988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-66923413718419802462009-02-08T21:17:00.000-06:002009-02-08T21:17:00.000-06:00I have no difficulty reverencing the Lord's body a...I have no difficulty reverencing the Lord's body and blood in the context of the Divine Service itself.<BR/><BR/>I do have a problem with the reservation of the body and blood and anything that would suggest that we are to adore the elements in any context but the divine service during which they are being distributed.<BR/><BR/>I don't think that there is a problem with me holding this position.Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-15933149539957012172009-02-08T20:34:00.000-06:002009-02-08T20:34:00.000-06:00Fr. Eckardt,You asked, "Can we all agree that duri...Fr. Eckardt,<BR/><BR/>You asked, "Can we all agree that during the Mass, it is not improper to adore the elevated host prior to (and thus apart from actually) receiving it?"<BR/><BR/>I, for one, do so agree. It is NOT improper to adore the elevated host prior to receiving it. In fact, it IS MOST proper to adore the elevated host prior to receiving it. <BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/><BR/>--------------Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-12099807336997695352009-02-08T20:26:00.000-06:002009-02-08T20:26:00.000-06:00I'm wondering if some Lutherans would insist on re...I'm wondering if some Lutherans would insist on reverencing the altar only when the consecrated elements are *not* there, while refusing to genuflect when they *are*do there?<BR/><BR/>In other words, it seems that some guys are actually implying it would be proper to bow or genuflect when the altar is empty, but refuse to so when the elements are present, being reserved in a "fit receptacle" perRev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-67868421700687831562009-02-08T19:08:00.000-06:002009-02-08T19:08:00.000-06:00Rev. McCain,It would be nice if you would really t...Rev. McCain,<BR/><BR/>It would be nice if you would really try to pay attention to what people write and draft your responses accordingly. It would also be nice if you would answer questions when they are directed your way, especially given the fact that you like to ask your fair share.<BR/><BR/>Here's how this works: <BR/><BR/>You asked the question:<BR/>"Why are you gentlemen not willing to Rev. Thomas C. Messer, SSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13740553600700598394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-23937795688321882732009-02-08T18:24:00.000-06:002009-02-08T18:24:00.000-06:00The aforementioned abuses of the Sacrament are egr...The aforementioned abuses of the Sacrament are egregious, it seems to me, precisely because of what it <I>is</I>, not because of what it isn't.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and by the way, I need to return to a much earlier comment made by Fr. Curtis. His <I>sedes doctrinae</I> for not reserving the Sacrament is the instruction to the Israelites in the wilderness regarding the manna: let none of it remain untilFr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-5177402388120054402009-02-08T16:53:00.000-06:002009-02-08T16:53:00.000-06:00Fr. Eckardt,I, for one, could not agree with you m...Fr. Eckardt,<BR/><BR/>I, for one, could not agree with you more. Where Christ is, our adoration is in order, be it during the Mass, after the Mass, or even if we find ourselves in an RC Church during hours of adoration (even though, as you note, they are abusing our Lord in this way).<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, I took a poll this morning during Bible Study. I asked those in attendance when they Rev. Thomas C. Messer, SSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13740553600700598394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-8901438771314317252009-02-08T15:32:00.000-06:002009-02-08T15:32:00.000-06:00To futher help us answer these questions please re...To futher help us answer these questions please refer to this fantastic link that clearly spells out Rome's errors. *heh, heh*<BR/><BR/>http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.aspAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-5283497034410875532009-02-08T15:25:00.000-06:002009-02-08T15:25:00.000-06:00Interesting. So what is the abuse? The fact that...Interesting. So what is the abuse? The fact that Rome takes the Sacrament and separates it from the intended use? Or (as I believe some would argue) the fact that Rome kneels before a piece of bread which they consider the Flesh of the living God?<BR/><BR/>It would be very helpful for this discussion if we could clarify: does the abuse lie in Rome's misuse of the Sacrament? Or does the abuse Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-49726020683236452382009-02-08T15:07:00.000-06:002009-02-08T15:07:00.000-06:00Pr. Lehman, you said, "I remain uncomfortable with...Pr. Lehman, you said, <BR/><BR/>"I remain uncomfortable with the adoration of the elements apart from the distribution. I think, on the basis of the Lord's words, that the proper adoration of the Lord's body and blood precisely in eating and drinking."<BR/><BR/>I'd like to pick up this thread and have us consider it a bit more carefully. Wherein precisely does this "proper" adoration of the Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24933982.post-73771926321875682052009-02-08T15:06:00.000-06:002009-02-08T15:06:00.000-06:00"If there is any doubt in your mind as to what it ..."If there is any doubt in your mind as to what it is after the benediction should you really be communing?"<BR/><BR/>It's supposed to be a question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com